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    Marquis
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    War tactics

    Post by Marquis on Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:11 pm

    Ok perhaps a bit early... but war is coming, so this is really aimed at Tony, but are we going to organize a strike force. If so what are the estimates on numbers and ship specs and skills.

    remember we'll need traders as well, for robos and drugs, and remember economical sabotage can often hurt more than military force. if you got a teleporter go out and telerob the enemy to death... you'll be saving union lives and making some cash on robos which can be used for our war effort.

    Anyhow to get the ball rolling. I'm currently skilling for war, and will only be trading in wep and eng to hopefully bag an AS or 2 Smile

    if I can afford my dream war ship I'll be switching to a chit for the missiles, but that depends on cash.
    My skills are currently mid 50's so I'm aiming to have 70's by the time war arrives.

    ship: Chit/hawk
    skills: 70's


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    Orak

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Orak on Sun Aug 31, 2008 4:00 pm

    I'd suggest to consider a more multi - alliance stroke team direction of thought.
    We got a good amount of fighters now, enough to defend ourselves within our turfs against pirates, definitly not what one can consider weak alliance.
    Still a lot of our fighters are low on skills, or in second rate ships with too weak setup for a war.
    I don't think we can pull an DDA MO takedown with only OPC pilots, smaller things probably yes though.

    I hope the Union boards will supply good communications for OPs during war, and us who are there will relay these to the alliance to form massive attack waves.

    Also one of the most important things in war is deffensive ambushes.
    Fed-Emp war shown that no MO is safe from destruction (no MMs there, but some of the very few maxed DDAs MO went down in this war)
    We invested a lot in the MOs in PU9, so in the war we will have a good backup, but we can't put trust in the MOs alone.
    It will be critical that all the able fighters will be present in defensive ambushes whenever they can.

    Also, i suggest considering alliance finding for the war - heavy toll, but frankly i think it works best.
    Alliance tax for the war raised to max of 1% (war tax) - it will be hardly felt as really war leaves participants broke and staggering anyway.
    Missiles cost a lot, and they are an important factor... 90-150k to just rearm a ship. for offensives - robots+drugs.. lots of cash from traders' pockets.
    Repair costs - anyone with setup for war will pay 200-500k for after death repairs, and over 100k for repairs after intensive battle.
    If the AF can be used to keep those who will fall beyond mandatory bottom it will keep our fighters rolling.
    traders who carry Missions take a huge risk because they may gain a lot of credits, but if they fail they may lose up to 600k.. traders who support attacks with robots.. the robots cost them a lot... If the AF can fund those costs it will keep them going as well.
    After the war taxes can be dropped down to lower levels depending on AF needs and income the taxes bring.
    Of course all of the above is only possible as long as the AF has funds... I have seen AF drain in a war before Sad

    I have posted a assault tactic i am a fan of on the fighters board.
    A good chat is draggonbattle chat, it has a lot of advantages for OPs, one such being able to see who is present in the room.

    Another option i never mentioned is escorted missions, these are less safe, and more random.
    Once MO walls are taken down by stronger attacks, a single ship can infiltrate enemy space there.. but an ambush breaker escort needed to make sure that the traders can go through
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    Jesper

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Jesper on Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:47 am

    im skilling again, want to get my HA at least to 55; Tac and Man should go up at least to 50.

    besides, i try to safe my credits for a war setup with 4 MWs for my hawk. (the 1MWs are nice, but not armor piercing)
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    deamons

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by deamons on Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:13 am

    Like I said in Chat, for defense we have the advantage of a nice choke point in Pass Uni-09 with the ability to retreat back past Keelas MO,

    this means we have a good defense, although without a lot of missiles.
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    Orak

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Orak on Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:38 am

    We'll have the missiles....

    We got sliders, and we hopefully will see more mercs around when war comes... Hawks are pretty useless on the defensive.. In war they are really not the ship to go with, and we may see many of the hawks change into something else for the war.
    The steadily degrading relationships were a big factor in my decision to buy a chitin over the hawk Razz I knew i won't be able to afford any new ships for a long time after i got any of them.
    Also i hope to see OWL and TF and LHCP in PU9 also...

    We can also use Algol, FPS have put up a 10M MO in the nook, which i guess will take quite some effort to break through, making it a good RP for us all.

    Jesper though i was the one always telling you to go for small guns on your ships, in war you'll want something bigger than 4MWs... They will simply not do damage to attackers, unless it's weak and unprepared attackers.

    jolers

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by jolers on Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:47 am

    exotic weapons all around!
    missiles for everybody...
    im thinking pu09 will be the unions make or break point so we really need other alliances there

    Chippie

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Chippie on Mon Sep 01, 2008 3:07 am

    i would like to see a list of fighters who will be in pass 09 for a defensive ambush also would be good to see a traders list as the war needs traders and so do the sectors to keep the production moving so all our pilots r still making money in war time if we could get ppl sorted out before war then we know that the sectors and the MO wall will have a fighting chance as for me i would like to be at the front line with my supply of robots and drugs for our fighters (and others) and as i can hold 6 missiles them to lol but if we have all our traders at the front line i will sit back and look after the sectors near Miola to let the stockers go up to the front line

    list 1 fighters that r going into fed space

    list 2 a defensive ambush in pass 09

    list 3 traders at the front line in pass 09

    list 4 traders keeping the sectors moving

    this is just a thought but i would like to see a list come in for this war but also would like the thoughts of everyone on this idea

    Kaosrules

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Kaosrules on Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:43 am

    just wanted to let everyone know that for the war i have begun an intensive regiem of missile construction. although i probably won't be in command of Meetpoint when war comes, there should be a large stock of missiles. also one thought comes to mind, with the huge tolls the war will bring to our finances would it be a good idea to set missile costs to pilots to just above that of the starbase itself? so as to cover the cost of the missile, and to make the missiles available at as cheap a price as possible for war?
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    Paul Celan

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Paul Celan on Mon Sep 01, 2008 10:07 am

    Orak wrote:We'll have the missiles....

    We got sliders, and we hopefully will see more mercs around when war comes... Hawks are pretty useless on the defensive.. In war they are really not the ship to go with, and we may see many of the hawks change into something else for the war.
    The steadily degrading relationships were a big factor in my decision to buy a chitin over the hawk Razz I knew i won't be able to afford any new ships for a long time after i got any of them.
    Also i hope to see OWL and TF and LHCP in PU9 also...

    We can also use Algol, FPS have put up a 10M MO in the nook, which i guess will take quite some effort to break through, making it a good RP for us all.

    Jesper though i was the one always telling you to go for small guns on your ships, in war you'll want something bigger than 4MWs... They will simply not do damage to attackers, unless it's weak and unprepared attackers.

    Yes I've thought about how my Hawk might be fairly useless -- I've been focusing on skilling up, since ranking while working on my MO in Uni-09 has been very difficult, so I don't think I will be able to make a chitin. I am wondering if I should try to switch ships for the war into something that can carry missiles. I am about 10k xp away from switching into a Gargantua -- but don't have nearly enough money to manage that and get it equipped. I'm not sure if such a switch is worth the alliance loaning me the money when there are so many other projects going on.
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    Jesper

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Jesper on Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:55 am

    Orak wrote:Jesper though i was the one always telling you to go for small guns on your ships, in war you'll want something bigger than 4MWs... They will simply not do damage to attackers, unless it's weak and unprepared attackers.

    thats the problem of the hawk... no place for bigger guns.
    and no cash for them.
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    superlars

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by superlars on Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:01 pm

    I've been thinking the same. I have pretty OK skills right now, I should be able to survive some attacks, man is above 55. But I fly a hawk with 1MWs so I would be useless in a fight right now.

    I have 5 mill to move with right now (ship value 2.5 mil 2.5 mil in bank).

    FSCv4.0|Dauntless|9|||||||||||||||||||||||||13|6|3|1|1|1|1|1|1|1||1|2||||||||||||

    That garg setup cost 5.5 mil standard, but 4 mil of that can be made in a OPC shipyard and get refunded. That puts the shipcost down to ~5.1. The only thing lacking with that ship is the guns Shocked But I think the war is some weeks away still so I should have enough money by then to get some decent guns.
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    Orak

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Orak on Mon Sep 01, 2008 4:18 pm

    list 1 fighters that r going into fed space

    list 2 a defensive ambush in pass 09

    list 3 traders at the front line in pass 09

    list 4 traders keeping the sectors moving

    Ok, this is a very important and valid point, however i'd put it differently.

    List 1 - Fighters:
    This list will include all the fighters that take part in the war - read pilots who will be messaged with directions via PMs.
    Fighters need to stay mobile - means: go to attack in fed space, and the next day already return to PU9 to defend it. I don't elude myself by the thought we'll have an ambush in PU9 ALL the time... but we need to have presense there as much as we can... it's every single fighter's personal responsibility.
    Fighters can sit in ambush while their APs fill up, when APs fill up they can either fly to join an OP if there is such or just make a circle in Union space to skill or rank and return to the spot to ambush again.

    List 2 - SAs
    The most important thing for an alliance like ours is to keep our economy running in war, so sector admins or alternative stockers still need to keep that running as much as they can.

    List 3 - Support
    Support are pilots who's because of skills or other reasons can not take a fighter's role in the war.
    They can join OPs to supply bots/drugs for fighters, or carry missions, or even materials for support of SBs or MOs.
    SAs can do that too, but their priority has to be the sector status.


    Paul@
    the hawk is useless for many things in war that is true, but also consider this - Chitin or Gargantua trying to scout for ambush - that is a suicide.. clear as it can be Razz
    These ships are more or less missile magnets... not the strongest magnets there are, but quite strong.
    A hawk with a SECM is great for ambush breaking (not the best, but as good as the union can get Sad )
    So it would be good to preserve some hawks "in service" in the war.

    However, 1MW lasers won't do at all.. and except the costs of the lasers, extras are needed because fighters lose so much credits in war it is something you need to experience first hand to see Razz
    If the war lasts long we may be forced to depend on AF for even ship repairs not to mention missiles, and it is not 100% sure that the AF will be able to support that, it's something that will need to be decided on spot.
    ahh and don't forget SECM costs... .. When you fight as much as you do in war your ECM may last for 2 weeks before it dies out and that's a 270k piece of equipment that can make the difference between life and death (death that costs 200-300k on repairs and moreso on skills)

    In the sence of costs a hawk is a better choice because it lacks the missiles that add a significant cost issue to rearming between battles.
    A hawk is better than a Gargantua/nighthawk that can't afford missiles Razz.. i think only a missile less PASC can beat the hawk.

    How can fighters make money?
    If you have the rank for it - VIPs! (that's what i plan to do)... 100+k a day is easy even with 1MW lasters.
    I sometimes get missions that pay almost 50k for a single mission.
    Second option, if you can save up or take a loan - get big weapons for war right now, and use them for kill missions... Ice beast single mission brings 6k, dragons 4k pirates 3k ESP5k...
    Stack those, and you can make credits.


    Also, i would like to move this post to the General Chat for all pilots to see if noone have objections? (PM me with objections Wink )

    Kaosrules

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Kaosrules on Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:55 am

    no objections from me.
    just an idea, but witht the introduction of the Missile Modulator i would guess that ECM's will be more widely used, and for us probably the strong ECM will be very popular with people attacking MO's. but i feel it would be unwise not to take advantage of the ECCM jammer, because that will take away any small advantage for feds with ECM's attacking our MO's. i feel that if the people who own the MO's have enough skill they should be docked with their MO and have an ECCM mounted, especially as we've invested so much into the MO wall, it would be a shame to see it go without taking down as many feds as it can.
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    Orak

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Orak on Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:40 am

    The ECCM jammer and SECM on any Union ship that has the rank for it is taken for granted without the missile modulators even.
    Also cloaking devise that will allow set ambushes in open space.

    On the surface by comparing ship specifications only you will notice that it appears as if the Union ships are completely outclassed... on every possible level Union ships just can't compete with anything the empire or federation has to offer (talking about warships and fighters).

    What makes the difference is the special Union EQ... With that EQ our ships are in fact the best there are, and any better specifications would simply make the Union unbalanced.

    Thaliana

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Thaliana on Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:50 pm

    Well, I'm definitely in the trading back home list! What missile/equipment are going to be especiallu useful during war - I can start stocking them now for the upcoming conflict?
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    deamons

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by deamons on Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:16 pm

    Well im guessing SCEM's would be useful and as Orak said they get used up quickly,

    N550 missiles are the best ones and a lot of people use them,

    Also i guess EECM;s would help as well,
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    Paul Celan

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    SECM question

    Post by Paul Celan on Tue Sep 02, 2008 3:55 pm

    Do you allow your SECM to degrade all the way to zero? Or do you replace it at a certain % level -- I'm unclear on if it is one of the pieces of equipment that starts functioning less efficiently at lower % levels.

    Desperatesoul

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Desperatesoul on Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:15 am

    wouldn`t the trident be a potential cheap alternative in case of war? cheaper than sliders ,more armour points and one more laser slot...
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    Orak

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Orak on Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:10 pm

    I hate to say this like this, but the EPS ships are crap Sad

    The benefit of the slider over the merc in the war is the ability to maintain high capacity with very heavy laser firepower.
    That gives the pilot the ability to spend less on the upkeep and make credits faster if in need... I often found myself in wars staying away from the front lines because i couldn't afford to go back in and i wished to have more capacity to make it up quicker.

    The real choice to make at those levels of cost and rank is between the slider as a battle oriented support ship and a mercury which is a pure fighter with not pretty good potential.

    The tridend is not remotely as good a fighter as a merc - it's big, has less missiles, only slightly more capacity and significantly lower armor.
    The trident is no good for support at all.. It's capacity is too limited to allow war equipment and leave capacity for large cargo quantities.
    So i counted it out...

    The EPS ships are compeltely outclassed by any faction or neutral ship that can be compared to it by rank/exp/cost categories.
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    bogram

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by bogram on Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:24 pm

    I am currently trading in a junker, but only to make money for my merc for the war. my skills should be in mid 40's by the time that rolls around, they are currently high 30's HA. i am planning on a merc with 3x120MT and 3xNN550 with x4 org. armor. i might hold out for x5 org. armor and if that is the case, my skills will be lower and ill prolly have to trade into the war. i was looking for input on that setup and my intentions, i figured i would be best suited taking out mid level fed traders in fed space, but i could be misguided in that idea as well.
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    Orak

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Orak on Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:24 pm

    Well, the only missile worth keeping at the SB is a NN550 missile.. they run out anywhere else real quick..

    Also WI is rather far from the expected point of conflict as well as from the respawn location (Let) .. so make them, but don't overmake them Razz i say a storage of 30 is good enough... from there see what goes.

    Also try to make them at minimal costs.
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    skorne

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    Re: War tactics

    Post by skorne on Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:36 pm

    Well, this conversation is making me feel better about all the time I've spent in my VDC. If the Merc is a good War time fighter, I see the VDC as even better. Currently I'm equipt with 1 LW 4 MW and 2 Endoplasm launchers. Stand Sheild, lvl4 EM armor and 2 NN-550's. I'm thinking I'm about as ready as I can be without changing ships (which I don't have the creds for). I'm currently trying to find the room to cram in an ECM. As best I can tell, this is as good as I'm gunna get without alot of creds I dont have.
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    Marquis
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    Re: War tactics

    Post by Marquis on Thu Sep 11, 2008 4:55 pm

    Skorne... Fed ships ... bah!.. but seriously the advantage a merc will have over your VDC is an S-ECM... most damage from ambushes will be from missiles... if you got the rank for a S-ECM then it just one of the EQ that makes Uni so powerful, also a ECCM make NN-550's into evil evil missiles.. no missile using unionite should leave home without one...


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